МёнинОчевидная ложь. Есть.
Ложь с Вашей стороны, причем очевидная - даже
Джулиана признает (да, обвините её тоже в очевидной лжи!), что никакого упоминания в Сильме-77 о майар в Войске Эонве при участии в Войне Гнева - нет.
Но можете сами поискать:
Yet it is said that Morgoth looked not for the assault that came upon him from the West; for so great was his pride become that he deemed that none would ever again come with open war against him. Moreover he thought that he had for ever estranged the Noldor from the Lords of the West, and that content in their blissful realm the Valar would heed no more his kingdom in the world without; for to him that is pitiless the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning. But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë. Few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war, for they remembered the slaying at the Swan-haven, and the rape of their ships; but they hearkened to Elwing, who was the daughter of Dior Eluchíl and come of their own kindred, and they sent mariners enough to sail the ships that bore the host of Valinor east over the sea. Yet they stayed aboard their vessels, and none of them set foot upon the Hither Lands.
Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.
But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.
But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of the Valar descended into the deeps of the earth. There Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the two Silmarils which remained to Morgoth were taken from his crown, and they shone unsullied beneath the sky; and Eönwë took them, and guarded them.
Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and' the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.
Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfilment of their oath; for they would have given battle for the Silmarils, were they withheld, even against the victorious host of Valinor, even though they stood alone against all the world. And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him.
But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens. The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning; and to Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgement of the Valar, by whose decree alone would Eönwë yield the jewels from his charge. Then Maglor desired indeed to submit, for his heart was sorrowful, and he said: The oath says not that we may not bide our time, and it may be that in Valinor all shall be forgiven and forgot, and we shall come into our own in peace.
But Maedhros answered that if they returned to Aman but the favour of the Valar were withheld from them, then their oath would still remain, but its fulfilment be beyond all hope; and he said: 'Who can tell to what dreadful doom we shall come, if we disobey the Powers in their own land, or purpose ever to bring war again into their holy realm?'
Yet Maglor still held back, saying: 'If Manwë and Varda themselves deny the fulfilment of an oath to which we named them in witness, is it not made void?'
And Maedhros answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And by Ilúvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?'
'If none can release us,' said Maglor, 'then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.'
Yet he yielded at last to the will of Maedhros, and they took counsel together how they should lay hands on the Silmarils. And they disguised themselves, and came in the night to the camp of Eönwë, and crept into the place where the Silmarils were guarded; and they slew the guards, and laid hands on the jewels. Then all the camp was raised against them, and they prepared to die, defending themselves until the last. But Eönwë would not permit the slaying of the sons of Fëanor; and departing unfought they fled far away. Each of them took to himself a Silmaril, for they said: 'Since one is lost to us, and but two remain, and we two alone of our brothers, so is it plain that fate would have us share the heirlooms of our father.'
But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable; and he perceived that it was as Eönwë had said, and that his right thereto had become void, and that the oath was vain. And being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth,
And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves. For Maglor was mighty among the singers of old, named only after Daeron of Doriath; but he came never back among the people of the Elves. And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.
In those days there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea; and thence in many a fleet the Eldar set sail into the West, and came never back to the lands of weeping and of war. And the Vanyar returned beneath their white banners, and were borne in triumph to Valinor; but their joy in victory was diminished, for they returned without the Silmarils from Morgoth's crown, and they knew that those jewels could not be found or brought together again unless the world be broken and remade.
And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest.
Так там в изменении "воинство Валинора". "Воинство", а не майяр! Можно вообще так понять, что это были эльфы, при первых прочтениях Сильма я так и понимала, например.
Я это не признаю, а предполагаю. Может быть, были. Но точного подтверждения того, что по поздним концепциям Толкина там были майяр, кроме Эонвэ - нет!
Вот, может, их и не было. Если вы так придираетесь к словам, то и я буду придираться.
Все ваши ремарки просто неверны, Вы и Кристофер игнорируете прямой смысл §6 (HoME 5), который я приведу отдельно, затем поправки к нему (HoME 11) и мы далее увидим конечный общий смысл (HoME 5 + HoME 11):
1. §6, HoME 5
- Then the sons of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Fionwe son of Manwe. Beneath his white banner marched also the Lindar, the Light-elves, the people of Ingwe; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and Ingwiel son of Ingwe was their chief. But remembering the slaying at the Swan-haven and the rape of their ships, few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war; but El wing went among them, and because she was fair and gentle, and was come also upon her fathers side from Thingol who was of their own kindred, they harkened to her; and they sent mariners sufficient to man and steer the ships upon which most of that army was borne east oversea; but they stayed aboard their ships and none ever set foot upon the shores of the Hither Lands.
2. Далее Кристофер пишет, что к §6 были следующие поправки:
- Fionwe was changed to Eonwe throughout, and 'son of Manwe' to 'herald of Manwe' in §5 (but in §6 'Fionwe son of Manwe' > 'Eonwe to whom Manwe gave his sword'); 'the sons of the Valar' became 'the host of the Valar' in §6, but 'the Children of the Valar' in §18, 'the sons of the Gods' in §20, and 'the sons of the Valar' in §§29, 32, were not corrected (see also under §15 below). ... 'Ingwiel son of Ingwe was their chief: observing the apparent error, in that Ingwiel appears to be named the leader of the Noldor (see V.334, §6), my father changed this to 'Finarphin son of Finwe': see IV. 196, second footnote. In the typescript he let the passage stand, but changed Ingwiel to Ingwion (and also 'Light-elves' to 'Fair-elves', see X.168,180).
3. Итого, с поправками имеем следующее:
- Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eonwe to whom Manwe gave his sword. Beneath his white banner marched also the Lindar, the Light-elves/Fair-elves, the people of Ingwe; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and Finarphin son of Finwe/Ingwion son of Ingwe was their chief. But remembering the slaying at the Swan-haven and the rape of their ships, few of the Teleri were willing to go forth to war; but El wing went among them, and because she was fair and gentle, and was come also upon her fathers side from Thingol who was of their own kindred, they harkened to her; and they sent mariners sufficient to man and steer the ships upon which most of that army was borne east oversea; but they stayed aboard their ships and none ever set foot upon the shores of the Hither Lands.
Предложение — "Beneath his white banner marched
also the Lindar, the Light-elves/Fair-elves, the people of Ingwe" с учетом предыдущего предложения означает, что воинство Валар под руководством Эонве - априори не могло состоять только из эльфов на момент выхода из Валинора, поскольку эльфы т.е. ваниар и шедшие среди ваниар - нолдор - "также маршировали под знаменами Эонве".
Juliana, Вы же опытный толкинист, зачем я сейчас занимаюсь разжевыванием очевидностей? Вы разве не понимаете, что Кристофер просто извратил текст своего отца, подверг данную главу чудовищным редакторским правкам, которые просто уничтожили весь смысл, заложенный в них Профессором. Вот текст Кристофера, сравните:
- But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwë, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Valinor, whose leader was Finarfin the son of Finwë.
Из этого действительно складывает очевидное впечатление, что кроме эльфов в воинстве Валар, не считая Эонве, больше никого и не было!
Что Кристофер и предположил и НЕ СТАЛ механически вставлять майяр там, где их, вполне может быть, по поздней концепции Толкина и не должно было быть.
Кристофер невероятно бесцеремонным способом убрал 'also' и таким же способом изменил связанное с ним предложение (что однозначно указывало, что в войске Валинора эльфы были лишь "
также"), на что он не имел никакого права и с учетом очень даже приличного отсутствия эмендаций в отношении "Дети Богов/Валар" в контексте Войны Гнева и характера самих эмендаций (
очень грубых) - можно однозначно утверждать, что майары без сомнения были на Войне Гнева и в войске Эонве/Валар.
А я вот очень хочу знать, зачем удалили Ингвиона (кстати, если возвеличивать роль ваниар, то удалять никак не надо было). Но ответа нет.
Вопрос не в том - зачем удалили Ингвиона, а в том, что как его удаление влияет на призыв Эонве к не-валинорским эльфам? Никак, правильно.
Ну, слава Эру. Тогда мне непонятно, какими силами должен был командовать Эонвэ, если средиземцев мало, аманских нолдор мало, а "Дети Валар" исчезли, как факт. Вот ваниар и остаются.
Боже мой
Джулиана, я Вас люблю!
Нет, потрясающе просто! Прям как в старые добрые фикбуковские времена!
Значит, "Дети Валар" - исчезли как факт, но эльфы поскольку также маршировали под знаменами Эонве, то значит первоначально сама армия Эонве была... ФЕЙКОВОЙ, в ней никого не было, но это было все равно войско! Пустое войско из никого!
Заслуги Эонвэ, Эарендиля и Орлов никто не принижает, наоборот. Но "костяк" войска должны были составлять именно ваниар. Больше просто некому.
Тут надо только уточнить одну принципиальную деталь, что у Профессора армия вышедшая из Валинора во время Войны Гнева - это армия Валар (host of the Valar) под руководством Эонве и со знаменем Эонве под которым также маршируют эльфы. Всё. Точка.
О каком костяке можно говорить и на основании чего, когда эльфы тут на уровне также участвующих.
